You have got to be kidding me
July 10th, 2008
We received an email last week from a company called ForumBooster. You’ll have to look them up, because I’m not going to do them the favor of linking to them.
Here’s the main content of the message:
The service was built to make forum & community building cost-efficient and streamlined. We are working very successfully with Buzz Marketing agencies, producing thousands of monthly posts. Forum Booster has been in business for over 3 years and has produced over 238,000 posts for 1,300 clients. We are the most experienced forum building service on the internet.
Forum Booster can also be utilized beyond forums to populate any user generated content. We have been used for writing product reviews, blog commenting, blog ghost writing, user generated articles, and a wide variety of niche writing projects.
Our online communities can begin or bolster the kind of natural, grassroots-generated buzz that your clients want for their products. Nothing says viral marketing like hundreds or even thousands of our Boosters all talking about a product!
Our pricing starts at $4.95 for a Trial Boost with discounts for volume orders. We also offer an invoicing option for companies that order $500 or more in services.
So let me get this straight: These guys have people learn a little bit about your industry or company and then flood legitimate forums trying to pimp your brand, posing like normal, everyday people. I don’t know what disturbs me more, the fact that there are companies out there that do this or that there are over 238,000 posts of misinformation floating around out there and 1300 clients that think this type of thing is okay.
Honest transparency will win everytime just like underhanded, stealth, shill techniques will get found out everytime. For shame!
Other posts by Spike.
Todd says:
You’d better watch out – Forum Booster might send their minions to write about BOF now!
It would be interesting to know who uses Forum Booster, why they decided to use it AND if the fake, bought information is as prevalent as the real, authentic, negative information.
I smell an investigation.
July 10th, 2008 at 5:46 amBIG Kahuna says:
Where does it say they give fake reviews? If the give only promoting, good reviews then I have a problem with it. But…
If they take the stance that they do honest reviews good or bad then this is a fantastic service. That’s a service I would use because it’s fair and honest.
I would and do pay people to review our services on a regular basis as long as they are honest and transparent. I specify only that they be honest and don’t hold back good or bad (and I’ve had some doozy negative reviews at times). That’s cool because we’ve learned a lot from the negative reviews!
I’ve read this insert 3 times now and no where does it say that the Buzz can’t be negative as well. Of course it sounds like it will be all positive but you may want to see if they have a disclaimer saying all reviews are subject to the reviewer. If so I say kudos to them, what a great tool to get people buzzing! If not I’m with Spike and this is a bad way to go.
July 10th, 2008 at 6:47 amMatty says:
It’s not “natural” or “grassroots” buzz (as they say in the copy) if you are paying them to create it.
July 10th, 2008 at 6:58 amChristy says:
Fair reviews/comments/articles or not, the effect of an approach like this only lasts as long as the company is willing to fork over the cash.
It’s a band-aid, a quick fix or maybe even a boost to get things going, but it’s NOT a healthy way to grow a movement.
And it can go horribly wrong.
July 10th, 2008 at 7:13 amMr. Steve says:
Let us not forget their Blog Writing service. That’s right…for a set fee of $9 per post (I think), they’ll write your blog for you.
Why not let them run your business for you too? Oooh…better yet, just let them fake your financial records to make it look like you sold more stuff than you really did? I mean, who’s gonna know? As long as the profit margin stays the same…right?
Grr.
July 10th, 2008 at 7:24 amBIG Kahuna says:
Not really Christy. Let’s say the reviews are honest for arguments sake. If people start giving reviews on blogs or forums it will certainly get people looking at the company the reviews are for. That may or may not generate “natural” buzz as Matt refers to it. Which could very well start a movement.
But if the reviews are bogus then the reviewer loses credibility as well as the client. It all hinges on the reviewer and if they are honest.
This is exactly what http://www.bzzagent.com/ does (isn’t the owner of this company President of WOMMA?). I know because I’m one of their agents. I sign up for a campaign and they send me a kit from their client. Then I’m “required” to “buzz” about it. I keep track of how many “conversations” I have etc.
Seems like a similar service no? I wouldn’t have “naturally” buzzed about it if I didn’t receive a kit, that’s for sure!
July 10th, 2008 at 7:28 amBIG Kahuna says:
It’s not “natural” or “grassroots” buzz (as they say in the copy) if you are paying them to create it.
Didn’t Fiskars pay you to develop a “movement” for them? If the Fiskateers were “natural” then it would have been developed on its own by a fan and BOF would have nothing to do with it. It certainly wasn’t natural by any means but the results are pretty good right?
Just playing devils advocate here. WOM in it’s purest sense is always best. But sometimes a honest nudge works as well (like Fiskateers).
WOM means different things to different people. It’s like the baseball argument over the DH. National league lovers think it’s pure and magical. American League lovers thinks it adds excitement to the game because they score many more runs.
I’m an American League guy, which is why I think as long as the reviews are honest then it only adds to the excitement of possible conversations.
July 10th, 2008 at 7:45 amMegan says:
At the risk of being eaten by the Big Kahuna…In my eyes, paying someone to say nice things about you is sort of akin to link-buying. Sure, it’s legal and you may benefit from it, but it’s still frowned upon.
Not to mention, it seems like a PR nightmare waiting to happen. A few bad comments and then you’ll have to hire those guys who claim to wipe your bad web reputation clean.
July 10th, 2008 at 9:52 amMatty says:
Didn’t Fiskars pay you to develop a “movement” for them?
…to answer your question…
There is a difference between creating buzz and developing a movement. We
July 10th, 2008 at 10:03 amgave the Fisk-a-teers tools and a voice to carry the movement (***we didn’t tell them what to say or that they had to say anything at all***). Key point, we didn’t do
it ourselves. Yes, Fiskars paid us, but it was for our ability to design the
look and feel. The Fisk-a-teers took the idea and movement on their own
back to carry it forward.
Jeff Crites says:
This doesn’t pass the sniff test. People can add all the perfume they want to make it seem more acceptable. But poop is poop.
July 10th, 2008 at 10:41 amKyle says:
Hey Spike,
If they flooded legitimate forums acting as normal people like you said I would 100% agree. However, I haven’t read anywhere on their site where they do that.
From what I’ve read it sounds like they would be boosting YOUR own forum or blog. I don’t see a big problem with it if its in your environment and the reviews and product facts are totally accurate. But maybe I’m being naive… What are your percieved drawbacks if you host the forum and posting?
July 10th, 2008 at 1:01 pmBIG Kahuna says:
Once again, my point is not paying someone to say nice things. Just be honest. They make no claims to give only good reviews. If they give both sides then they’re A-Okay with me.
Matty, if you pay someone to blog, you pay someone to blog, period. Fiskateers are paid by Fiskars, hence it ain’t natural. Your “tool” is made up by BOF. It’s not, repeat…not a natural love for Fiskars. Cause you thunk it up and Fiskars PAID you for it.
Now let me go on the record and say I think what you’ve done is fantastic. It’s a great WOM tactic. But it’s not and will never be a natural occurance. What happened after it was in place was a direct result of your strategy. All food of the poisinous non natural tree.
People that set up blogs dedicated to a company or product out of the love of it is natural. They’re not paid, they are true brand ambassadors. They’re not paid.
That’s just my opinion as a branding guy, you’re certainly entitled to your own.
July 10th, 2008 at 3:06 pmSpike says:
Kyle,
It still isn’t authentic. It still isn’t transparent. It still is misleading and stealth.
July 10th, 2008 at 3:30 pmBIG Kahuna says:
Spike,
you don’t know that. And it’s not like they’re hiding anything, it’s all spelled out on there site.
If it is like that then you’re correct.
But don’t sit high and mighty when you yourself have set up a paid blogging website. Seems somewhat hypocritcal to me. But when you’re the one receiving the funds it gets a whole lot easier to justify somehow.
just sayin’.
July 10th, 2008 at 3:36 pmRebecca says:
As one of the Fiskateers, I feel the need to chime in. Do we get paid to blog? Absolutely, but it’s not the only thing we do. Are we required to blog exclusively about Fiskars? Absolutely not. There are have been many posts that have absolutely nothing to do with Fiskars, and there are also posts that actually talk about other company’s products. In other words, we are writing about things that we would in all likelihood naturally write about anyway on our own blogs.
In addition, four of the five new leads were already Fiskateers. We’re basically doing a lot of the same things now that we were doing before we became leads (chatting on the message board, doing RAK’s, blogging); now we just happen to have our pictures on the home page and get to do some other fun things. Sure we get paid now, but we’re being paid for our passion for Fiskars, not for creating buzz for some product that we’d never even heard of before the mailman delivered it to our door.
July 10th, 2008 at 8:33 pmDave says:
Calling it Viral doesn’t make it viral blah blah, same principle Spike you already know where I’m going with this.
July 10th, 2008 at 9:02 pmMr. Steve says:
I gave the site a once-over, and here’s my take: You have a forum that is not gaining any momentum. You talk to this company and tell them about yourself. They then take your money, and tell their “writers” to go to X-forum and write something, but here are the guidelines as to what you can write. (interesting side note, in order to qualify to be one of their paid writers, you have to post 5 times on the ForumBooster forum., even if the post is just “test”…that tells me that they are all about quantity, not quality).
So, end result: your previously unpopular forum now has a street team that artificially boosts its popularity.
Is it evil? No. But it does fly in the face of building an authentic, sustainable movement of kindred spirits. It’s like paying the cool kids to hang out with you in the hallways. Effective? Maybe. Genuine? No.
July 11th, 2008 at 4:36 amRobbin says:
You know, Scott (aka big kahuna). Great companies have enemies. I’m so glad when you show up on our blog with your opposing “just a brand guy” views. And I am glad there are folks in the world who love the role of devil’s advocate. Makes the world a better place, eh? Come see us the next time you’re in Greenville. Wouldn’t that be fun? Surely your travels take you close by. Maybe we can drink some tequila. Spike, you’d be up for that, wouldn’t you?
OX,
Robbin
July 11th, 2008 at 4:37 amBIG Kahuna says:
First let me say that I have great respect for BOF and what you’re doing. I think you’ve got something really great brewing. And you have an allstar in Spike (may want to make him an owner if he already isn’t or fear losing him).
Because I have different opinions doesn’t make me an “enemy” it makes me someone with a different opinion is all. And I’m not afraid to share my opinions. The fact that we often agree to disagree is a good thing. If we all agreed we’d be pretty bored eh? I mean really, do you want a bunch of your followers saying “great post” all the time or someone who challenges what you say sometimes?
If you’ve ever read our blog you’ll see that I question everybody, Seth Godin, Andy Sernovitz etc. I don’t play favorites with who I disagree with. I feel just as passionate about branding as you do WOM.
Hence our differences. But please don’t confuse my passion with making you out to an enemy because you’re not.
My thoughts as a branding guy.
July 11th, 2008 at 6:19 amBob says:
Spike,
Yeah, we got the same email from them last week and I posted a tweet about it:
http://twitter.com/BobTroia/statuses/848425447
Sad part is, as unethical as it seems these practitioners will always be in business as long as there are companies willing to hire them (and don’t get caught or called out)…
July 11th, 2008 at 9:59 ammack collier says:
Couple of thoughts on BIG’s comments:
“Didn’t Fiskars pay you to develop a “movement” for them? If the Fiskateers were “natural” then it would have been developed on its own by a fan and BOF would have nothing to do with it. It certainly wasn’t natural by any means but the results are pretty good right?”
To me, there is a WORLD of difference between finding an existing single-mom evangelist for Fiskars and asking her if she wants to be paid to blog on a site that’s owned by Fiskars, and asking her if she wants to be paid to blog about Castrol Synthetic Motor Oil. But maybe that’s just me.
Then BIG adds this:
“you don’t know that. And it’s not like they’re hiding anything, it’s all spelled out on there site.”
Who cares about the site. Is it spelled out on the FORUMS? Is there something there telling me which posts are bought and paid for, and which ones aren’t? I honestly don’t know, but I think they should be, agreed?
July 11th, 2008 at 9:59 amYvonne DiVita says:
Guess I have to know more about the company before I get all worked up over it. Natural buzz isn’t always natural… I favor allowing bloggers to blog about what they know best, already. I get pitched from PR agencies all the time and I only write about content that is worthwhile to my blog readers.
I don’t think I could honestly write for hire … although I do write a petblog that is sponsored by Purina. They don’t tell me what to write, they send me stuff but I don’t have to post it, and it’s really my petblog, with their logo at the top. For which I get paid.
The waters are getting murky, methinks.
Couldn’t some of this be seen as paid ads…the kind you see in major media mags - where they’ve PAID for their CEO to write an article that is really an ad???
July 11th, 2008 at 10:07 amMatt says:
I went to their website and found a “Client Testimonial”
“I had a real hard time trying to jumpstart my forums until I discovered ForumBooster.net. I am extremely satisfied by their services and the professionalism of their writers. Thank you ForumBooster.”
Ilya E., Faremax.com
I went on their forums and there is absolutely no indication that any of their posts are from a paid service.
I Look at it this way. If I was on a forum and I was contributing to a thread, it would annoy me that some people on there had no real interest in the topics being discussed. Its disingenuous.
As a site owner I wouldn’t want this kind of service. Just because someone can Google a subject and write about it doesn’t make an awesome forum.
July 11th, 2008 at 10:21 amBIG Kahuna says:
“To me, there is a WORLD of difference between finding an existing single-mom evangelist for Fiskars and asking her if she wants to be paid to blog on a site that’s owned by Fiskars, and asking her if she wants to be paid to blog about Castrol Synthetic Motor Oil.”
See, I think if you get paid to blog you get paid to blog. It’s not natural and never will be. You can spin it anyway you want but you’re being paid to blog. Whether you’re paid from Castrol Oil or Fiskars you’re BEING paid. I guess it’s like being a little pregnant huh?
Personally I love the Fiskars program. It’s sure to be duplicated by many others. Natural? Nope. Good strategy? Yup!
July 11th, 2008 at 10:32 amRussell Fisher says:
Do this group see much of a difference between this approach and BzzAgent?
July 11th, 2008 at 12:46 pmSpike says:
Scott,
Thanks for the kind words. For the record, I wouldn’t work for anyone else for any amount of money or any title. There’s no place like Brains on Fire. It is my home. And I’m surrounded not only by people who are smarter than me, but people I genuinely love and care for.
July 11th, 2008 at 1:26 pmBIG Kahuna says:
No amount of money huh? Sure, sure…whatever you say Spike!
Russell, I made that point above. No one addressed it because I think the owner of BzzAgent is the President of WOMMA? And I think a lot of WOMM people may not agree with their approach. Which would be ironic if indeed he is President of WOMMA.
Once again, there seems to be a vague definition of what “rules” of WOMM there are (although WOMMA has some published guidelines).
Thank god I’m a branding guy!
July 11th, 2008 at 3:43 pmBetsy says:
If you think about it what exactly are you purchasing? More comments/posts to your community? That in itself doesn’t build a community. It doesn’t start a movement.
It’s the people passionate about the issue/product/ situation that form the community and give momentum to a movement.
I’m a part of several online forums Fiskateers being one…(I’m not a Lead fiskateer and not paid for what I do) I am also a part of ones for homeschooling, my scrapbooking business, mom support and others and the communities are great because of what it’s members put into it.
Sure it starts off on topic talking about the product or the issue. The common thread that united you in the first place. But eventually you talk off topic about your lives and families and jobs. You start to KNOW the people. (in a cyber sense at least) you learn about their heartbreaks and triumphs You laugh with them and cry with them, pray for them. You become friends.
Friends that share pictures of their families, friends that send coupons to one another, friends that meet when they are in the area.
A good community that has a passionate following comes from the people within the community caring about the issue/product and eventually each other. It then becomes more than an online community.
That stuff can’t be purchased. You can pay someone to maybe “spring board” it, making it seem like there are comments of people that use the product/support the cause whatever… you can pay someone to promote it, you can even pay someone to over see it. You can’t pay people to have that natural passion that builds a community and unites people together.
Paid “passion” will move on when the price is higher someplace else or they stop getting paid. Natural passion will remain because they themselves are invested in the cause. It has become a part of them.
July 12th, 2008 at 12:42 pmRoss says:
I see their approach as a kind of way to “turf build” your lawn in the spring. Laying that “fertilizer” down will surely make your lawn look green, look healthy. But if you were to take care of your property naturally, you wouldn’t need bull…., uh, “fertilizer”, would you? And if you keep laying that stuff down, you know what happens? Yep, weak roots. Go figure.
July 12th, 2008 at 3:43 pmmack collier says:
“See, I think if you get paid to blog you get paid to blog. It’s not natural and never will be.”
Would a single-mom Fiskars evangelist blog about Fiskars products without being paid?
Would a single-mom Fiskars evangelist blog about Castrol Synthetic Motor Oil without being paid?
No one is trying to claim that adding money to the equation doesn’t alter the outcome, be it by inches or miles.
But I don’t see too many people trying to equate being paid to blog about products you don’t use to being the same or even close to being paid to blog about products you love.
Are you honestly saying that you can’t see the difference? Seriously?
July 12th, 2008 at 5:10 pmBIG Kahuna says:
Seriously I don’t. If you’re paid to blog it changes everything. Is your point that they’re less natural? Okay, they are somewhat less natural….whoop dee do!
Natural means unpaid (do it on your free will). And it ain’t natural is it?
They are all hired hit men, or women depending on who’s doing it. Stop paying them if you don’t want to open yourself up to the high standards you so aspire.
July 13th, 2008 at 10:18 amCheryl says:
I feel the need to share my thoughts. My name is Cheryl Waters and I’m a founding lead Fiskateer. My passion for Fiskars . . . the product and company started long before the Fiskateers. The compensation that you speak of is minimal if you were to look at it from a corporate view and does not compare to the hours put in . . . that’s because it simply helps to meet some of our needs while we naturally share our passion. The passion started before we were chosen as four lead founding Fiskateers (paid or unpaid). When the movement of the Fiskateers began we were paying for expenses out of own pocket. Didn’t mind that and would still be a passionate consumer today if I were not a lead Fiskateer. Brains on Fire and Fiskars has helped to provide tools and channel our energy in ’sharing our voice’. We have been the ones who have run with the program doing as we see fit, sharing our passion, and our lives. I have personally have been so enriched by those in the community and I the community would say the same . . . this is priceless . . . something that could not be ‘bought’. Our passion began even before the Fiskateers (if only you would listen to the stories . . . how it’s been a generational thing, their love, their respect). If the lead (as you call them paid) fiskateers were to leave today the movement and community would continue to flourish because of the fuel, fire and leadership of the Fiskateers within the community. They don’t need the leads. Since the Fiskateers began the Australia/New Zealand Fiskateers have started and the UK Fiskarettes . . . all started by people who love their Fiskars!!! While there is some compensation for us leads, the passion I have for the company, product and the art could not be ‘bought’. I work full time in addition to being a lead fiskateer and this passion has spilled over into my professional career. The passion I share with others and that they share with me is a part of how I live my life, who I am and who I am becoming. There have been countless hours of ’sharing my passion and voice’ . . . the whole experience priceless. When I step down as a lead I plan on continuing to be a part of this wonderful community. You can call it what you want . . . ‘hit men or women’ but then you do not truthfully know and cannot honestly speak of the passion behind the movement of the Fiskateers and who we truly are.
July 13th, 2008 at 2:03 pmRussell Fisher says:
Big, sorry I missed your initial comment. I agree with your passion about keeping things natural. Cheryl, I hope that all people share the same desire as you in a paid for WOM space, but I cannot help but wondering how sponsored WOM taints the experience for the receiver. That is not to say that there is not a place for space for such an approach, but transparency is key because it is the perceptions of this approach that can bite you in the end, no matter how genuine you may or may not be. People are less likely to believe me when I sing praises of my company, but they are able to put that in context if they know that I am supported by this organization. If I purposefully hide this from them, trust is destroyed, and that is very expensive to win back.
July 14th, 2008 at 8:57 amBIG Kahuna says:
Cheryl, read my comments, I think the program is great. It certianly works better when you love what you’re blogging about.
But…
You’re being paid. People will question your motives because of that and it makes the program a marketing tactic versus a natural born word of mouth occurance.
You can’t deny that, it is what it is.
July 14th, 2008 at 12:56 pmSpike says:
Mack, don’t worry about it. It’s a lost cause.
July 14th, 2008 at 2:34 pmBIG Kahuna says:
Mack, it’s never a lost cause. Conversation is always good!
July 14th, 2008 at 3:57 pmAngela says:
I just saw my Fisk-a-teer signal light up so here I am another lead Fiskateer, throwing my 2 cents in with the rest of you.
In my mind the Fisk-a-teer program has harnessed an existing movement, one that was already in loosely in place but that was in need of a good home, a little nurturing to help it grow. I have many hobbies and passions outside of scrapbooking but I haven’t found a comparable environment to the Fisk-a-teer program. This is no once a month book club, it’s not a consumer panel, it’s something deeper. I had been blogging about my interest in scrapbooking (and other hobbies) for a long time before Brains on Fire or Fiskars noticed me. I do it because I enjoy the creative expression of writing which hasn’t changed since recently being hired for the Fisk-a-teer program.
The bottom line here is that you can read marketing books, study brand imaging models and debate marketing strategies v. natural born word of mouth phenomena ad nauseam but no person or company will truly understand what a movement is all about unless they have had the experience yourself. I could write reviews all day for money (actually I have written one or two) but I still reserve the best part of myself for the things I truly believe in. I know the difference is apparent. Money for review? Review written, money received. End of story.
July 14th, 2008 at 10:58 pmMy role as a lead Fisk-a-teer? I find true pleasure in watching people develop a passion for my passions. I tell my close friends about things Fiskars does well. I’m thoroughly engaged and interested in the whole experience. You can’t buy that. Just ask the other 4,500 Fisk-a-teers who are a part of our community sans paycheck.
Spike says:
At this point I do believe that I need to point out that if you search for links to your website on Google blog search, Scott, that post after post after post comes up from people who not only have no idea about branding and would never normally blog about it (or your company), but if you dig down deep enough in their websites, you can find that they are paid to blog. That’s why one post is about branding and the next is about some pharmaceutical drug and the one after that is about unique bedding for kids. Why do you feel you need to do that? To get more people to link to you?
On the other hand, if you search to links to the Fiskateer blog you get post after post after post of people who are not only passionate about the industry, but aren’t paid a cent to blog about Fiskars - nor are they told what to post. Or even that they have to post. Hell, they haven’t even been suggested to that they should post. They do it because they love it. The leads are just like any blogger blogging for a company they work for. They’re completely transparent about their employment.
July 20th, 2008 at 10:26 amMajorBead says:
Yea, but at the end of the day, if their strategies work, marketers will use them.
And that’s really all there is to the business discussion - all other perspectives are simply philosophical.
July 20th, 2008 at 9:34 pmLinda Margaret says:
It’s interesting what you have to say. I think that whether a blog is paid for or spontaneous, it is whether the content checks out or not that determines if the blogger is someone worth listening to. Online, many stories are written and then the facts to back them up are “found”. People who know what they are talking about, in blogs or forums, generally demonstrate this through content and consistency. The money then becomes irrelevant, a means by which to sustain an identified resource.
August 11th, 2008 at 4:28 am